My introduction - 5 years of humiliation (advice needed)
My seborrheic dermatitis started when I was almost 16 though I had had
dandruff since 13. It started when the area where my glasses rested on
my nose became inflamed and itchy. I used Nizoral, and the condition
cleared. Two months later, it came back and Nizoral proved
ineffective. I started using Cloderm (a topical steroid cream) which
was effective at first, but then stopped being so. Then, about six or
seven months into my disorder, I started using Protopic which I’ve
used ever since. For my hair I use pyrythione zinc (Head and
Shoulders), which doesn’t control the formation of hard flake layers
well but at least manages the itching a little bit.
At time the condition gets better, but then it comes back. I feel very
self-conscious about it. Luckily, I have managed to keep a decent life
regarding the opposite sex; but I feel extremely self-conscious. Often
I have to plan my days around flare-ups (for instance, if I’m starting
to feel a flareup coming, I would avoid seeing certain people the next
day). It has affected my productivity.
I wish it would stop, but I don’t know what to do. I don’t drink, and
I try to avoid cheese. I don’t know what to do.
I’ve seen posts here about drinking urine, and yes if urine would
work, you bet your ass I would drink mine. I’ve also seen posts about
oral fungicides and antibiotics but I would be afraid that this would
just make the fungi to which we are so sensitive become stronger and
stronger.
How did this dreadful skin disorder come about? What can I do? I often
find myself wishing that I could just wake up one day and be free from
this plague.
July 4th, 2007 at 8:57 pm
How do you use the H&S? If you just lather and rinse it
off, you are getting very little benefit from the very broad
spectrum anti microbial agent, pyrithione zinc. It is
almost insoluble in water (it is actually a very fine powder
suspended in the shampoo), but dissolves slowly in skin oil,
leaving it anti-fungal for a day or two. But to gain this
effect, you have to leave the shampoo on your skin, full
strength, not as a lather, for several minutes, before
showering the detergents off.
This method does increase the effect of the pyrithione zinc
so much that if you over do the soak time, the concentration
of pyrithione zinc, will get high enough in your skin to
begin to attack it. So the optimum time is as long as your
skin can tolerate without irritation. If it starts to feel
warm, time is up.
This method can be used on any affected skin, not just your
scalp, but the soak time you can tolerate will vary,
depending on the thickness of the skin in various places.
July 5th, 2007 at 6:22 am
I suppose I’ll try that but, wow, that would cause me to use
significantly more shampoo (since you say I shouldn’t lather).
July 6th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
Granted, it uses more than the dab it takes to produce
lather. But it is not helpful to lay on a thick layer.
Smear a thin coating. Also, you can purchase cheap, generic
shampoo with pyrithione zinc that works exactly as well as
the name brand.
July 6th, 2007 at 11:42 pm
Michael wrote:
> John Popelish wrote:
I agree that toxicity is a possibility and talked about that
and described the warning signs. Almost any medication or
treatment you might try involves a trade off between
effectiveness and side effects. Aspirin can kill you if you
take a large enough overdose.
I have tried leaving H&S on my face for up to a half hour,
and at that exposure, I definitely experienced some
irritation. Pyrithione zinc is not an antibiotic or
fungicide. It is a biocide. That means it kills. Long
exposure (to the fractional percentage concentration in
shampoo) can give you a skin burn similar to a sun burn, and
can also make your hair fall out. Treat it as something
with risks. But that doesn’t mean that it can’t be used
more effectively than just lathering your hair with it.
I think the shampoo manufacturers have reduced the
concentration of pyrithione zinc to a concentration where it
is just starting to be anti fungal, so you have to use it
daily, just to barely keep your dandruff under control. If
they told you how to increase its effectiveness by a factor
of 8 or 10, they would sell a lot less shampoo. But if it
was so dangerous that skin contact could put your life at
risk, the product would never have reached the market.
Those considerations are what limits its concentration in
shampoo to about 1/2 percent.
We are here to tell each other what we have tried, and how
it worked, and warn each other about what is dangerous or
not useful. I think you and I are both taking a useful part
in that process. You are certainly free to add your
opinions and warnings to anything I or anyone else says.
But I am not required to take your advice, just as no one is
required to take mine.
July 7th, 2007 at 9:51 am
Tulasi Ramineni wrote:
> food stores like GNC, vitamin world…even online…u can try in walmart too i
guess
I have bought MSM at Costco and Walmart. It is sold almost
anywhere that vitamins and other dietary supplements are sold.
The nice thing about MSM is that it is not a complicated
formulation or preparation, but a simple chemical, like
table salt is. Regardless of the source, MSM is MSM. It is
also one of the least toxic substances ever tested. If you
consume cane sugar or MSM in equal amounts, you will be
poisoned by sugar before you are poisoned by MSM.
July 8th, 2007 at 1:36 am
Wow not to jump into the middle of this, but I will add two throughts:
1. I start my shower by shampooing my hair with Head & Shoulders,
massaging it into my scalp, and I don’t rinse it off until the end of
my shower. So it stays on my head for just a few minutes. I think I
learned this from Nizoral or something (I know some shampoo
recommends this or at least used to). So far I haven’t had any
problems (no brain damage that I can see, LOL) and my dandruff has
definitely been improved.
2. For my face I used ZNP bar, which is the same ingredient as Head &
Shoulders but a more gentle formula for the face. I wash my face
thoroughly, gently massaging the soap into problem areas like my
eyebrows, but I rinse it fairly quickly. My facial skin is too
sensitive to mess with.
Before buying the ZNP bar I tried using Head & Shoulders shampoo on
my face and found it rather harsh. I would never leave it on my face
for a long period. I’d come away bright red, I think.
I use the ZNP bar in the evening before bed and just use Cetaphyl
cleansing bar in the morning. My understanding and experience is that
cleaning is important too to remove skin flakes, oils and other stuff
that can make sebderm worse.
Good luck. There are a lot of "snake oil" type products out there. Be
cautious and do your research, talk to your doctor, and find a
regimen that works for you. You may never cure your sebderm but you
can control it if you find the right regimen.
Jon
July 8th, 2007 at 5:25 am
Where can one buy the ZNP bar?
July 8th, 2007 at 3:34 pm
I tried applying the Head and Shoulders the way Jon suggested. It
doesn’t work. It made the scales worse. It’s like I’m a serpent now.
July 10th, 2007 at 4:21 am
Ask your phamacist. They may not have it in stock but they can order it
for you. It costs about $6 and lasts forever. I’ve also seen it
available online, such as Amazon.com.
Jon
July 10th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
WOW… that was quick! Was this after just 1 shampoo?
The only time I’ve ever experienced anything like that was when I
didn’t rinse shampoo (H&S or otherwise) thoroughly enough, leaving me
itching like crazy and flaking worse than usual. Did you rinse the
shampoo out at the end of your shower?
If so, I’m not sure what to suggest. It could be that your scalp is
so irritated right now that anything you do will cause more
irritation - at least until you’re able calm things down enough to
make some progress. I also wonder if you can make a fair judgement
after just one shampoo, as it usually takes me at least 3 days before
I know if something is working. (But then again, you seem pretty
sure!)
Have you tried other shampoos with different active ingredients, like
ketoconazole (Nizoral), Selenium Sulfide (Selsun Blue), salicylic
acid (Ionil) or coal tar shampoos (Neutrogena T-Gel)? Different
things work for different people - and even at different times for
the same person! For me I get good results from H&S… but if I was
really suffering, I would reach for T-Gel - for me that’s my
treatment of last resort. I encourage you to try different things to
find what works for you.
There are a lot more options when it comes to shampoo for your scalp
than treatments for your face, since the skin on your face is much
more sensitive. ZNP bar may not help your face if H&S doesn’t help
your scalp (since it’s the same active ingredient) but I wouldn’t
tell you not to try it - since it has dramatically reduced my facial
sebderm.
Good luck and don’t give up!
Jon
July 11th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
Not only do different ingredients have different effects,
the same ingredient can have different effect at different
times. T-Gel used to work well for me, as a temporary fix,
but a year after I had a very bad reaction to a bee sting,
just bathing with T-Gel caused me to get something like a
severe sun burn. It was bad enough that I peeled all over,
everywhere I came in contact with the lather. I couldn’t
believe that the T-Gel was the cause, since I had used in
off and on for years. So I waited a couple months and tried
it again. Same result, painful burn for a couple days,
followed by massive peeling. Bummer. I haven’t had the
nerve to try it in 3 years, since.
John Popelish
July 12th, 2007 at 1:30 am
johnjay198 wrote:
> I tried applying the Head and Shoulders the way Jon suggested. It
> doesn’t work. It made the scales worse. It’s like I’m a serpent now.
I am unhappy to hear that the experience was a bad one. But
please help others out by describing what you tried, in more
detail.
How long did you let the H&S sit on your skin before
removing it?
How did you remove it (tub bath, wash cloth, shower)?
Did you rinse briefly or thoroughly? Do you think you might
have still tasted like shampoo, if you would have licked the
skin that had been treated?
Was the skin you used on covered in scales (which makes it
hard to remove the shampoo residue) or fairly closed surface?
And please report back in a day or three, how the redness
and new scales recovered, compared to what you would have
expected without this treatment.
Thanks for documenting your trial in the archive of this
forum. It may help others do better in the future.
John Popelish
July 12th, 2007 at 10:54 am
I tested it out by applying Head and Shoulders to too very itchy/burny
areas of my face (one part was a little scaley, the other was just
oily). I left the H&S for 5 minutes before rinsing it with water from
the sink. I felt a burning sensation, and then afterwards nothing
seemed to have changed except the skin seemed redder. I’m not sure if
I rinsed thoroughly so I’m back to using Protopic to control it.
Today I bought MSM supplements (1000mg per capsule). Any
recommendation on how much I should take? I took one at 4 PM (20
minutes ago).
July 12th, 2007 at 9:48 pm
I find it very difficult to remove all the surface shampoo
without rinsing in the flowing water stream from the shower.
It takes a very slight residue of the detergent to cause a
tight, dry feeling.
I think that the body stores MSM a little, so a few days at
1000 mg to 2000 mg can be followed by a long term rate of
500 mg and keep the body’s stores pretty well filled. More
doesn’t do harm, but just wastes the MSM.
July 16th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Just to clarify… I was suggesting Head & Shoulders for the SCALP -
leaving it on for the duration of the shower before thoroughly
rinsing out. I also find H&S too rough for the face.
For the face or other areas of the body, I recommend ZNP bar. It
contains the same active ingredient as Head & Shoulders (pyrithone
zinc) but is much gentler. I don’t leave it on, though… I just
massage it in and rinse it off. I’ve found it to be a little drying,
so I’d recommend a gentle moisturizer.
I use ZNP in the evening before bed and Cetaphyl bar cleanser and a
moisturizer/sunscreen in the morning.
This regimen works well enough for me that I don’t need to use the
ZNP bar daily. The flakes are essentially gone but some redness
remains - but I suspect that is more related to rosacea than sebderm
(but who knows for sure?)
Jon